This Week in Legacy: The Legacy Round Table: The "Meat's Back on the Menu!" Edition
Howdy folks! It's time yet again for another edition of This Week in Legacy! I'm your host, Joe Dyer, and this week we are assembling the Round Table again for another look at Legacy through the eyes of various Legacy content creators and prominent figures. In addition to that we've got a touch lightly on the 4Seasons event and the European Legacy Masters event in Bologna, Italy as well as two Challenges.
Without further ado, let's dive right in!
The Legacy Round Table - The "Meat's Back on the Menu!" Edition
That's right, we are back with yet another Legacy Round Table article, assembling several of the format's well known creators and players to talk about the current state of the Legacy format! Let's go over who is with us this time around. Be sure to check out the social media links for all these folks below!
| Name | Social Media Links |
|---|---|
| John Ryan Hamilton | |
| Jordan Berenhaus | |
| Cyril Pitalot | |
| David Sittinger | |
| Ethan Formichella | |
| Evan Lewis | |
| Chris McGuire | |
| Sahar Mirhadi | |
| In Response - A Legacy Podcast | |
| Jarvis Yu |
Pretty solid group of folks, so let's get right to the questions!
#1 - What are your current thoughts on the Legacy format? Are you having fun? Is the format healthy?
John Ryan Hamilton: I’m having a great time. As much as I enjoyed the post WPA/EI pre LOTR era where a Daze deck wasn’t tier 0, this format is still a good time. The current deck to beat (UB scam/shadow) is a fine and beatable deck, and the meta is still evolving. I suspect decks like DnT, lands, and depths will rise up more to bully the UB decks. I enjoy Orcish Bowmasters as a card, being a very powerful card that goes into a lot of decks but doesn’t just wildly snowball out of control if left unchecked like previous busted cards.
I have a long time and very biased held opinion that cards that make cantrips worse are generally good for the meta, as cantripping is always by far and away the best thing to be doing. Bowmaster is great at making cantrips worse but not unplayable (I think way too many people treat a Bowmaster in play like a spirit of the labyrinth when they shouldn’t). Bowmaster isn’t without its issues, blue Bowmaster mirrors can be fairly messy. While the card doesn’t snowball, if your cantrip deck doesn’t have an answer for their Bowmaster it can become awkward to try to find one, and one of the best Bowmaster answers is just Bowmaster, making it a weird arms race. I’m not going to shed a lot of tears that someone’s Brainstorm + Bowmaster deck is losing to someone else’s Brainstorm + Bowmaster decks though. I’m just glad the new cool thing to do isn’t very good outside of blue matchups (RIP Ragavan).
Jordan Berenhaus: Legacy is still my favorite format. I'm having a ton of fun! My favorite deck (Burn) is now completely dead due to lack of new cards, but luckily I've found new love in Ancient Tomb decks. I honestly don't play enough tournaments to diagnose if the format is healthy.
Cyril Pitalot: Legacy format just had a big shakeup just by the addition of LotR cards and the unban of mind's desire which pushed players to deckbuild with nostalgia.
Orcish Bowmasters particularly created a new play pattern which to me is refreshing and fun for the format. I think the format is currently in an healthy spot after people tried to find the best build of tempo decks and now people are going to adapt to this freshly found tempo which appears to be UB.
We're entering that phase where people will start to heavily target the popular tempo deck with metagamed deck choices or new hate such as Sanctifier en-Vec to give a quick example.
David Sittinger: I think Legacy is in a fantastic place right now. So many strategies are very viable post-Iteration/White Plume banning, and we're seeing a small resurgence in storm variants as people are playing around the unbanning of Mind's Desire. It took a while for Delver strategies to adapt to the bannings, and with the release of LOTR and Orcish Bowmasters, they've settled into a new "stock" shell. However, even though Delver is still the most popular deck in the meta according to MTGGoldfish, it's not dominating the format by any means like it once was. The games involving Delver or Death's Shadow feel far more interactive and less snowball-like as well. It's really nice to see so many viable non-blue strategies near the top of the metagame too.
Ethan Formichella: I am enjoying the format. I think UB decks are very highly represented to a possibly unhealthy degree but I'm not convinced that's going to be permanent, and there are a lot of nonblue decks seeing success. I play a pretty narrow range of decks so I'm pretty biased, but I feel like it's a good sign that UB counter+discard+fast clock tends to be a nightmare matchup for the decks I play and I still don't feel like Shadow and Scam are too good. Plus, it's nice that after several years of Volcanic Island dominance, Underground Sea has reclaimed it's rightful place as the best dual land in the game.
Evan Lewis: I've been having a great time, for the most part. I might be biased since I actually get to play the new broken card, and that's not common for me, but I think Orcish Bowmasters has been a good card for the format. For the past several years, new cards tended to enter the format because they were oppressive, proactive threats that demanded immediate answers or they'd take over the game. Bowmasters has some of this effect against blue decks, but when it's such a known quantity and holding up two mana is so expensive, it ends up slowing down games and making them feel a lot more like my memory of Legacy pre-2018 or so, in a good way.
Chris McGuire: Legacy is in a weird spot right now. We've gone from the release of the Lord of the Rings set, to the unbanning of Mind's Desire, to the impending release of Wilds of Eldraine, all in the span of 11 weeks and all of which have had or will have a profound impact on Legacy. As a result, everything is simply in a state of massive flux and will continue to be so until we at least get a better idea of just how big a deal Beseech the Mirror is. It's a good time to brew and try new things out, but at the same time it's going to take a while before things settle and we can get a good idea of how the new metagame will shake out, making testing for Eternal Weekend that much more challenging. As a result of all the recent changes to Legacy, it's impossible to say yet if the format is healthy; I don't think we'll know the answer to that question before Eternal Weekend. I am having fun brewing some new ideas and testing them out, but then again EW season is one of my favourite times of the year so take that with a grain of salt.
Sahar Mirhadi: In my opinion, the current game format is in good health as Black has become a viable option for both tempo and midrange gameplay. However, the growing popularity of Orcish Bowmasters in the meta is a concern as it continues to dominate. Despite this, many players seem to enjoy the style of play that Orcish Bowmasters presents. I also believe that there are still unexplored cards from Lord of the Rings and Wilds of Eldraine that will have a significant impact on the format. Personally, I have enjoyed the influence that land cyclers have had on the game.
It is worth noting that there are still differences between online and paper metas. I, for example, have played less Legacy than usual, but with CommandFest Europe and Eternal Weekend approaching, I plan to play more.
In Response: Although the format has been heavily centered around Orcish Bowmasters since it became printed, there are still a lot of different decks performing very well. Decks begin to deal with Bowmasters in different ways while also being very effective at doing so for which reason we think the format is quite healthy despite the original menace.
Jarvis Yu: The Legacy format is relatively healthy, although the ubiquity of Orcish Bowmasters is a little bit much at times. I'm generally enjoying the format, and there's a wide swath of strategies that most people can pursue.
#2 - What changes would you make to the current format (bans/unbans) and why?
John Ryan Hamilton: None. I think most of the unban candidates are kinda goofy nonsense with low upsides. Yeah sure mind twist is probably unplayable but are we really improving the format by having it around? The real unbans should be putting Unfinity and W40K cards on Magic Online. There are a lot of real metagame changers in those sets that simply don’t exist. As for bans, you’re crazy if you think Bowmaster is getting axed anytime soon. Rag and WPA got half a year. EI and Oko got years. We’re 2 months into the Bowmaster meta. Even if the card ends up being a little too ubiquitous in Legacy (I would say ‘too powerful’ but there’s no shot that’s the case, people keep pointing at playrate instead because the card is fairly within the bounds of typical legacy powerlevel), I would be shocked to see action taken by the end of the year.
Jordan Berenhaus: I usually favor unbans rather than bans. On that note, I think Earthcraft can be taken off the banlist, and I don't think it would even be that good. Other than that, I think its too soon to ban anything from LoTR. Let's see what people come up with to counter The One Ring and Orcish Bowmasters before adding more cards to the banlist.
Cyril Pitalot: My process is that I would always investigate what cards are safe to unban like they did with Mind's Desire before banning anything and then ban if something gets really out of control. Speaking of current meta right now I feel like nothing needs to change. Format needs to react to the new decks, cards, play pattern and then we'll be able to reassess where the format is at and especially once online and paper format are in line with one another.
David Sittinger: Similar to what happened with Mind's Desire, I think there are a few cards currently on the banlist that could probably come off as they were initially put on there so many years ago that both the format and the game of Magic itself has changed so much to warrant them being safe. Mind Twist, Mana Drain, and Earthcraft come to mind.
Ethan Formichella: I believe that the Legacy ban list is way too big. There's been a pattern for a while now of the broken Delver threat getting banned (Deathrite Shaman, Wrenn and Six, Oko, Dreadhorde Arcanist, Ragavan) and then just getting replaced by some new power card within months, and I don't foresee anything happening to interrupt that pattern. I'd like to see all of these cards unbanned as well as a lot of cards that don't fit into Delver-style decks, such as Survival of the Fittest, White Plume Adventurer, Yawgmoth's Bargain, Mind Twist, Memory Jar, Goblin Recruiter, Mana Drain, Zirda, Sensei's Divining Top, and more. Attempting to keep Delver in line with the rest of the format isn't going to work so either something from the core needs to be banned (Brainstorm or Daze) or a lot of things need to be unbanned to raise the power level of the rest of the format, and I'd prefer the latter. I'd also like to mention that I would be hesitant to unban cards on the reserve list, but I strongly believe that all paper Legacy events should be proxy-friendly anyway.
Evan Lewis: I probably wouldn't change anything. I don't really believe that much in unbans, and outside of personal grievances against cards like True-Name Nemesis, Thassa's Oracle and Omniscience, no card feels out of line to me.
The one card that is on my mind though is Grief. It's definitely not a card that's too powerful for Legacy, but I don't think that it's a card that leads to great games either, particularly when it's nearly always paired with Reanimate. It exacerbates play/draw quite a lot, and when Grief's whole deal is to fast-track to low resources games, Menace tends too close to unblockable for my tastes. For all that I don't feel strongly enough to advocate for it, I would be happy to see it go since I suspect it would be a net positive for the average game of Legacy.
Chris McGuire: Short of inventing a time machine and going back in time to delay the release of the LotR set, I can't say I'd make any changes at the current moment. I argued in the last roundtable that Zirda and Mind Twist could and should be unbanned, and I still agree with this statement, but right now I think those get put on the docket for next August and we let the format shake itself out for the time being.
Sahar Mirhadi: I am not sure if I would make any changes right now. I would want the online and paper to sync up first and then review the data.
In Response: At the moment we strongly believe that the format is fine as it is l, as there are numerous viable decks that can be played.
Unbans like Mind's Desire are very much appreciated and can certainly be done more often. We think that, under the recent ruling, Lurrus of the Dream-Den might be an interesting card to unban, because the deckbuilding restriction now has a real cost with format allstars Murktide,Troll and Grief costing more than 2 mana.
Jarvis Yu: I personally would unban/ban nothing, since there's a few new sets coming out, and I don't think anything actually warrants the ban/unban.
#3 - What do you think is the best positioned strategy in the current Legacy format?
John Ryan Hamilton: UB Scam and Shadow are probably the top dogs, but have some fairly exploitable holes that give decks like GW depths, Lands (likely with pfire) or DnT the ability to come out on top right now.
Jordan Berenhaus: As I said, I haven't played many tournaments recently but I think the Grixis bowmaster tempo deck is well positioned. A good all rounder that has game against most of the format. If I were to bring a deck to a tournament, it would probably be either 8cast or RW Initative as they are both competitive decks I enjoy.
Cyril Pitalot: We just found the best tempo which means during couple of weeks that deck is going to dominate. That's what is best positioned!
Once we know how to fight them we will see different strategies reappear.
David Sittinger: Now that it's found a new identity in a Grixis shell, I think Delver will remain the most popular deck in the format, followed closely by its tempo cousin, UB Shadow. Blue tempo shells continue to be strong, but as I mentioned before, it's not nearly as oppressive as it once was. The format as a whole is still very open and any given tier 1 or 2 deck can perform very well in an event.
Ethan Formichella: My gut says that something with Swords to Plowshares that isn't too heavily beaten up by Orcish Bowmasters which sounds like Death and Taxes to me. Please do not draw any connections between this statement and the fact that I play that deck's worst matchup in every event.
Evan Lewis: Death's Shadow looks like the best deck to me right now. Troll of Khazad-dum and Orcish Bowmasters juiced that deck up something fierce. Its ability to pummel combo while remaining very competitive in fair matchups makes it seem very appealing, and its win rate shows that.
Chris McGuire: On August 31st, my answer would have been either a UB Scam variant or Cephalid Breakfast, due to speed, amount of interaction, and level of difficulty to disrupt. On September 1st...the answer is a little more cloudy.
Sahar Mirhadi: While I haven't played it myself, I've noticed that the UB Tempo/Scam deck featuring Grief, Reanimate, and Troll of Khazad-dum is performing well. It seems that black is becoming more popular as a color to play in Legacy, and this has led to new developments in the "Scam" package, which is great news for the format as another way to tackle both fair and unfair matchups.
In Response: In a vacuum, the best combination of cards involve Bowmasters, Grief, Reanimate and the new Troll, which creates a big and strong threat base for the UB Scam deck. However, there are still a lot of other strategies viable despite that, and decks are already trying to adapt. For example Painter going from RB into RW for Swords to Plowshares to combat this.
Jarvis Yu: I think it's difficult to argue that any single strategy is literally the best at the moment. There's many reasonable contenders for great strategies (Dimir Scam, Dimir Death's Shadow, Dark Depths strategies, Painter's Servant, and Doomsday).
#4 - What Are Your Thoughts on Universes Beyond cards in Legacy?
John Ryan Hamilton: I try not to have thoughts if I can help it. Who cares. It’s Legacy, we play with goofy nonsense all the time. Let me cast Cloud Strife in DnT. Show & Tell in a Fatalis. GSZ for Plantman. My main grievance is when these cards are just designed for EDH and no one keeps Legacy in mind and they end up breaking stuff. I know people don’t like thinking about our little format but it can get disheartening sometimes.
Jordan Berenhaus: I am not a fan. I don't mind non-Magic IP being involved in eternal formats, but these cards are often pushed to the limit so they sell. I preferred the old days where one or two cards a set would break into the format, keeping it fresh but consistent. I loved that you could show up with a deck you hadn't touched in 2 years and still have it be viable. Unfortunately that isn't the case any more and I find myself making changes every month due to these pushed supplemental/UB sets.
Cyril Pitalot: I think Universes Beyond cards are good for any formats however it depends on the quantity of playable cards that enters the realm of playability. I think LotR touched on maybe a little too much cards this time around with many cards becoming staples or even shaping the metagame around them but it is important to keep the format fresh. Those sets also allows to fix some issues via printings rather than bannings.
David Sittinger: I think LOTR cards were by and large a big success for the format. Personally, I think the Warhammer 40K cards that splashed into the format are a slight problem as those were designed more with multiplayer formats like Commander in mind, which have trouble translating well into 60-card formats. Commander Legends: Battle for Baldur's Gate felt similarly. I think the format benefits more from UB sets that are designed to go direct into Modern like LOTR was, and don't introduce strange, gimmick-y mechanics. Sometimes a card or two may feel like a problem initially, but if given enough time, the format will adapt. The other issue that the 40K cards still have is their lack of availability on Magic Online, which causes some relevant format discrepancies from paper. Hopefully this issue is solved in and for the future.
Ethan Formichella: I'm not a fan, but they also don't really take anything away from my enjoyment of the games so it's whatever. I will say that it's important to me that Legacy is the format where all of the Magic cards are (other than individual banned ones of course) so while I don't love the existence of the Universes Beyond cards, I'd strongly prefer them to be Legacy-legal given that they exist. (This is also my stance on cards designed for multiplayer for what it's worth.) I will say that my biggest issue with Universes Beyond is that I don't like that Magic's comprehensive rules need to adjust to comply with third-party brand guidelines. (For example, Transformers cards need to "convert" instead of "transform", Stranger Things cards need "friends forever" instead of "partner", Doctor Who cards need Magic to allow two-word subtypes for the first time ever.) Again, this doesn't directly detract from the Legacy experience for me so I don't want to complain too much, but it leaves a bad taste in my mouth for sure.
Evan Lewis: I'm not a fan of them. Magic's commitment to original worlds, even when inspired by other media, is a large factor in both its longevity as an IP, and my long-term interest in the game. When The Tenth Doctor can soon wield Negan's bat when fighting Sephiroth, the dissonant charm of 25+ years of unique Magic worlds starts feeling a lot less like a game designed by creative people and more like yet another vehicle through which to sell crossover content. I'd be happy to ignore it if these cards were only EDH playable, but as we've already seen, we can easily expect UB products to affect Legacy, and it doesn't feel good for our ability to not engage to hinge solely on these cards' playability.
Chris McGuire: It is what it is at this point. The LotR set may become Magic's best selling set ever by the end of the year so they're not going anywhere. I'm happy that the TWD cards finally got their in-universe printings, so that resolved my biggest gripe about them.
Sahar Mirhadi: Personally, I don't mind the combination of IPs and using Magic as a broader game system. Legacy has seen successful implementations of cards such as Lord of the Rings impacting the format in a mostly positive way. However, I hope that only a few select cards will have a significant impact rather than constantly disrupting the format every few weeks.
In Response: Overall, this adds some exciting possibilities to create new magic products, but the limit should be the wizarding theme and lore. If you go beyond that boundary too much, the cards don't feel like "Magic" anymore.
Additionally there are limited reprint possibilities for such specific IPs which can lead to really expensive cards like we saw recently with Orcish Bowmasters and The One Ring.
Jarvis Yu: Personally, I don't mind them too much if the card availability is not an issue. Breaking the 'fantasy' setting of Magic isn't a huge deal anymore given the numerous 'planeswalking' that has occurred.
#5 - Write a Legacy Haiku. Be Creative!
John Ryan Hamilton:
Orcish Bowmasters
Good vs Brainstorm, not X/1s
It’s a blue hate card
Jordan Berenhaus:
Shuffle off Ponder
I always draw the same cards
That I sent away
Cyril Pitalot:
Cast your Brainstorm right
To dig for your best answers
Terminus on top
David Sittinger:
Elvish Reclaimer
At its best fetching Cradles
3/4 beats get there
Ethan Formichella:
Hi, G L H F
Opponent kept seven cards
Tomb, Chalice, your turn
Evan Lewis:
Expert bowman, I
Boromir and Brainstorm dead
By my grimy hands
Chris McGuire:
Wizards of the Coast
Stop printing so many sets
For the love of God
Sahar Mirhadi:
Grief, Reanimate
Taking life and cards from you
See the joy and the 3/2
In Response:
We even made two for you!
Fetch Swampcycle Troll
Reanimate it, Daze you
GGs go next game
--
Legacy is dead
Community still holds strong
Long live legacy
Jarvis Yu:
Turn 1 Dark Depths go.
Crop Rotation for the Stage.
Use Stage to make Lage!
Wrapping Up
A big thanks to everyone who participated in this go-around of the Legacy Round Table. It's always a pleasure seeing the responses from everyone and getting different perspectives for each one of these is thoroughly amazing!
4Seasons and European Legacy Masters 2023
This past weekend in Bologna, Italy at the 4Seasons event was also the European Legacy Masters event! This invitation only event looked like it was incredibly well attended, and we'll be going further in depth on this event as well as the main 4Seasons events more next week as part of the focal point of that article, but I did want to call out the winner of this event - František Juda on Mono Black Helm Stompy!
Beseech the Mirror looks absolutely frightful in this type of deck. We're definitely going to cover much more of this event next week, but congrats to the winner of this event! Definitely an awesome achievement.
Legacy Challenge 9/2
The first Challenge event of the weekend was the early morning Saturday event. This event had 58 players in it thanks to the data collected by the Legacy Data Collection Project.
You can find the Top 32 decklists for this event here and the data sheet here.
Boros Stompy was the most popular deck, but it's win rate was right in the middle. Death's Shadow did very well, and D&T was slightly better than 50%. Cradle Control also did quite well. Jeskai Control and Lands both performed poorly, as did Reanimator.
Let's take a look at the Top 8.
| Deck Name | Placing | MTGO Username |
|---|---|---|
| Death and Taxes | 1st | yoshiwata |
| Death's Shadow | 2nd | Venom1 |
| RUG Cascade | 3rd | P00siMancer |
| Cradle Control | 4th | Testacular |
| Boros Stompy | 5th | peposhi |
| Cradle Control | 6th | EronRelentless |
| Hammer Time | 7th | CrusherBotBG |
| Boros Stompy | 8th | kokoko098 |
Lot of interesting decks here. Some Ancient Tomb and some Cradles, but at the end of it all it was D&T that won.
This version seems to definitely be the quintessential stock list of D&T at the moment. D&T is one of those decks that often has to be fluid to manage the expected metagame it wants to beat, and definitely changes the most out of most Legacy archetypes over time.
In Second Place we had Death's Shadow.
I really like this version with the absence of Grief, as I definitely think that is not as good in the actual Shadow package deck as it is in the Scam builds. Ob Nixilis, the Adversary is such a cool card in general here.
Also in this Top 8 we had RUG Cascade.
It is awesome that if any deck was going to find a home for Lorien Revealed that this deck is definitely it. Not being able to run Brainstorm or Ponder can be rough if you are trying to ensure land drops, so having Lorien act as a land is quite solid indeed.
Further down this Top 8 we had two copies of Cradle Control so let's look at the higher placing one, which is our good friend Curran Delahanty.
Chrome Mox is an incredibly interesting development to this deck, but I can definitely see how good it could be, since there are a lot of times where you could just feed a Hierarch to it to get around your Hierarch dying to something like a Bowmasters. Quite cool indeed!
Legacy Challenge 9/3
The second Challenge event of the weekend was the mid afternoon Sunday Challenge. This event had 82 players in it thanks to the data collected by the Legacy Data Collection Project.
You can find the Top 32 decklists for this event here and the data sheet here.
4C Uro had the most representation and it also did very well. Jeskai did better in this event, as did Grixis Delver and 8Cast. Cradle Control, Boros, and Death's Shadow performed rather poorly.
Let's take a look at the Top 8.
| Deck Name | Placing | MTGO Username |
|---|---|---|
| 4C Uro Control | 1st | Parrotlet |
| 8Cast | 2nd | Danny_Bambino |
| 4C Uro Control | 3rd | Kihara_Works |
| Dimir Scam | 4th | TheWitchKling |
| Jeskai Stoneblade | 5th | Graciasportanto |
| Jeskai Control | 6th | LuisMJ |
| Esper Vial | 7th | Carroz |
| Death's Shadow | 8th | Cynijii |
Lot of Control options in this event. In fact, the event was won by 4C Uro Control.
Big Yorion Legendary matters with Delighted Halfling is quite strong for sure. I am loving the fact that this deck has a few Terminus in it. Terminus followed up by a Forth Eorlingas! seems quite insane.
In Second Place we had 8Cast.
Seeing more of this aggressive build with Patchwork Automaton and honestly it makes perfect sense. It quickly grows out of control and is pretty hard to kill with the Ward 2, and it's unlikely to be killed by something like Bowmasters.
Further down the Top 8 we had Dimir Scam.
I really like Palantir of Orthanc in decks at the moment. It seems like such a powerful and interesting card overall.
In the bottom half of the Top 8 we had Jeskai Stoneblade.
Oh man, a Snapcaster/Stoneforge deck? I am in love with the idea of Snapcaster'ing a Forth Eorlingas! That seems absolutely nuts for sure.
Around the Web
- Tony Scapone fixed Ruby Storm! Check it out here.
- The Legacy Gambit is playing some Breakfast. Check it out here.
- Everyday Eternal has a new episode out. Check it out here.
- James Kisau has a new Grixis Control video. Check it out here.
The Spice Corner
You can find this past week's 5-0 deck lists over here.
Legacy Paradoxical Outcome!
GAME OBJECTS.DECK
Mind Over Matter + The One Ring in Control!
Wrapping Up
That's all the time we have this week folks! Thanks for continuing to support the column and join us next week as we continue our journey into Legacy!
As always you can reach me at all my associated links via my Link Tree! In addition I'm always around the MTGGoldfish Discord Server and the MTGLegacy Discord Server.
Until next time!
