This Week in Legacy: The Legacy Round Table - The "Frog Gonna Give It To Ya!" Edition
Howdy folks! It's time yet again for another edition of This Week in Legacy! I'm your host, Joe Dyer, and this week we're going to be assembling the Round Table once more to determine what people are thinking about the current Legacy format. In addition, I've got some news regarding some changes on Magic Online to be aware of as well as Challenge information from last week including the Showcase Challenge. Also I've got a sweet thing from this past week's Duskmourn Early Access Event on MTGO!
Again, we are having tons of issues just getting data collected for these events, and I really want to stress the importance of having people helping to ensure data is collected if people want to see this information out there.
Without further ado, let's dive right in!
The Legacy Round Table - The "Frog Gonna Give It To Ya!" Edition
It's time yet again for another Legacy Round Table! These are articles where I gather together a bunch of different players and content creators from the Legacy community to get their thoughts on the format as a whole, and other things!
I've got a small crew here for this one, but still quite excellent! Let's see who we are hearing from for this edition!
| Name | Social Media Links |
|---|---|
| Harmony Woods | |
| Andreas Petersen | |
| Evan Lewis | |
| Ryan Nicholas | |
| Curran Delahanty | |
| Michael Mapson |
What a stellar group! Be sure to go follow all these people. With that said, let's get to the questions!
#1 - What are your current thoughts on the Legacy Format? Are you having fun? Is the format healthy?
Harmony Woods: I think this Legacy format is pretty enjoyable, and I like the game play (especially around Psychic Frog). I don't think its perfect, but it's mostly alright. As far as health goes, I think it's mostly healthy with maybe one or two minor illnesses.
Andreas Petersen: Legacy has always been and continues to be awesome. Bans are always exciting because they breed creativity which creates shockwaves throughout the format. We are currently trying to figure out which strategies are top tier and which are roleplayers. I highly enjoy this phase.
Evan Lewis: I'm having quite a bit more fun now that my cards aren't primarily in the graveyard! Grief was one of the more miserable cards I've ever had the displeasure to play against, and I'm very glad to see it gone. It's refreshing to back in a setting where I don't know what the best deck is. There's lots to try out and a lot of the format to discover again, which feels like the first time that's been true since the start of the year, almost. I have some concerns about the cards currently poising to be at the top of the format that I'll get to in future answers, but overall I'm just glad to have a new format of puzzles to solve.
Ryan Nicholas: I’m currently having a blast playing Legacy! I think that there are still some issues at hand that need to be dealt with. As far as “healthy?” I believe that Legacy is open enough at the current moment to be considered “alright.”
Curran Delahanty: Legacy is in a decent spot at this moment. With Grief finally having exited the format, the UB Rescaminator archetype is now having a harder time pivoting between their game plans and now easier to compete with. I have noticed concerns about Psychic Frog but I believe that we are still in a place where the format is diversifying strategies again and players feel like they are able to actually play their decks. I think the format is healthy. I am having fun playing the games as well.
Michael Mapson: With the upcoming RC I have been playing less Legacy than usual, but I am having fun. I do not believe the format is healthy though.
#2 - What changes would you make to the current format (bans/unbans) and why?
Harmony Woods: Unban some of the cards that shouldn't be banned - Mind Twist, Earthcraft. If they somehow become problems no harm done. You could also unban Frantic Search but that's riskier. I think Eye of Ugin is the only card that could possibly see a ban due to how it allows Eldrazi to 'break' the rules of Stompy (and in my opinion become a bit too strong). I think the ability for Eye of Ugin to provide a sort of late-game inevitability Stompy never has is a bit much and makes it significantly more difficult for fair decks to defeat Eldrazi, in addition to it just being a Sol land (with upside/downside). I don't think it's unreasonable to argue for a ban of other cards from the deck, but I think they miss the core problem. I also would appreciate an unban of Grief and ban of Entomb, but I imagine that's not happening.
Andreas Petersen: I'm almost never in favor of bans as I approach all format constellations as a puzzle that I need to solve because of my competitive nature. I'm worried that Dimir strategies will reign supreme once more, but I want more time to qualify that thought. That color combo has gotten A LOT of new tools the past few years.
Evan Lewis: I would be pretty happy to see any combination of the following cards banned: Psychic Frog, Nadu, Winged Wisdom, Up the Beanstalk, and one of Sowing Mycospawn or Glaring Fleshraker. Other than possibly Frog, I don't think any of these cards are by-the-numbers too powerful or over-represented in the meta, but the games where these cards get to do their thing are just not very fun. I have no illusions of returning to the slow, plodding Legacy of the early-mid 2010s, but I think the format could do with fewer cards that completely take over the game if they aren't immediately answered (and Mycospawn gets docked extra points for being only answerable by blue).
I don't really believe in unbans - cards are banned for reasons, and I see very little benefit to freeing them. Most unbans have changed nothing about what's good in Legacy, and I don't buy the argument that a Banned and Restricted list should only have the fewest cards necessary. The worlds where Mind Twist is banned or unbanned are mostly the same, except that one in ten thousand Legacy games are saved from being ruined by Ritual->Ritual->Twist when you keep it locked up.
Ryan Nicholas: I would ban Psychic Frog and Glaring Fleshraker.
Frog wins games on its own and Fleshraker paired with free spells in the Eldrazi deck as well as cards like Kozilek's Command allows dominance over games almost on its own
Curran Delahanty: Unban Deathrite Shaman you cowards! (I think the current format is fine I just want my son to be free)
Michael Mapson: Ban Frog for obvious reasons. Ban Eldrazi Temple. The Eldrazi deck is much better than the rest of the format (UB not included). I think hitting Eldrazi Temple allows the deck to surgical while bringing it down to the test of the format. The last and most controversial ban I want is Daze. Over and over we see tempo cards banned and I think Daze it's the real culprit. Ragavan and Dreadhorde Arcanist we're only too good because they never died. I will say, without Daze, there is a possibility the format implies so I would want them to make it clear that this is a trial run and it may come back in three months if the format sucks.
As for unbans, Lurrus and Zirda were never given a chance to exist with the companion tax. I think Zirda is still probably too good but I would love to see Lurrus be freed with the same, "we'll act quickly if this sucks" mentality I advocate for with Daze.
#3 - What do you think is the best positioned strategy in the current Legacy format?
Harmony Woods: As you might guess from my previous statement, Eldrazi. I think Eldrazi is hard to metagame against due to Cavern of Souls making counterspells dubious, Kozilek's Command being fantastic removal and ramp, and the terrifying Devourer of Destiny + Eye of Ugin endgame. In particular, I think the oft-suggested land hate such as Blood Moon, Harbinger of the Seas, and Back to Basics doesn't really cut it. Three mana is a lot in Legacy, especially when facing down such potent early-game threats. It sort of reminds me of Blood Moon not being very good versus Domain Zoo in Modern because they're just killing you.
I think Doomsday might be the next best positioned, with it's ability to combo kill Eldrazi and play a reasonable creature game as a pivot with Psychic Frog and Barrowgoyf.
Andreas Petersen: With the addition of Psychic Frog, the tempo/midrang-y decks feel more well-rounded than ever. I wouldn't sleep on Reanimator either in which the Frog makes post-board games easier and in general makes it harder for the opponent to shut you down. Having more ways to win and keeping your opponent guessing is very powerful.
Evan Lewis: UBx tempo decks with Psychic Frog seem like the best place to be, and there's a good amount of variety there between "Delver", Reanimator, UB Tempo, and even control decks with Frog. None of those decks stand out as particularly better than the others to me, at this point.
Ryan Nicholas: I believe that UBx and Eldrazi are the best strategies at the moment.
Curran Delahanty: I think Eldrazi is really well positioned. It is quick and can run over a lot of strategies if their opponents stumble on resources or interact poorly with how the Eldrazi player is developing. I think the deck has a lot of really good matchups as fast spell-based combo is being held down right now by Vexing Bauble.
Michael Mapson: UB Reanimator with Psychic Frog. Its less about a specific matchup spread or positioning and more so the deck is just generally good vs everything.
After that, as I said above I think Eldrazi is the next best choice and then I'm biased but I think Nadu is in 3rd despite pretty low representation.
#4 - What are your thoughts on Psychic Frog and Orcish Bowmasters in the current format?
Harmony Woods: Bowmasters is fine and has always been fine. I enjoy how it makes decisions about cantrip timing more interesting, I don't love how it 'soft bans' 1 toughness creatures. I do kind of think the latter is overstated.
Psychic Frog is extremely strong, and while I don't personally think it should be banned I can entirely understand why some people think so. I do think the 'unbeatable in combat'/'unkillable by Lightning Bolt' arguments are at best flawed, because to do either of these things the Grog player has to go down multiple cards. This is a real cost that can be abused with other removal. It's sometimes still worthwhile, but it must be appreciated as a cost. I also don't think it dodging Lightning Bolt is an inherently bad thing - this is a moment where the 'adapt' argument is actually okay. Carefully choosing your interaction to hit the major threats of the metagame is something that has always been a thing and is an integral part of deckbuilding in any format.
Andreas Petersen: Psychic Frog does it all for a very low investment. If left unchecked, it often runs away with the game, and when answered, you just move on with your gameplan. The threat of having an unanswered snowball is very strong, especially when backed up by disruption. Orcish Bowmasters is funnily enough a card that we have all gotten used to playing around - both in deckbuilding with fewer X/1s and in the games with better timed cantrips - so at this point it's merely a roleplayer in the format. In a vacuum, it's a top 3 card in the format though, and I will monitor closely how many decks incorporates it moving forward.
Evan Lewis: Psychic Frog is probably too strong of a card. The comparisons to currently-banned Dreadhorde Arcanist aren't spot on, in my opinion, but they're pretty close. The near immunity to damage-based removal is also not great. That said, it probably speaks to the current state of the format that I'm at least glad the best creature in Legacy doesn't have an ETB. Sometimes you just kill the Frog and get to move on with your life. And while the games where you don't remove Frog are too miserable for this card to be safe from a ban in the near future, I appreciate that removal spells feel like they matter more than they used to.
As for Bowmasters, I honestly miss when that card was played more. As a player of a non-cantrip deck, I realize my experience is non-standard, but I really liked how the threat of Orcish Bowmasters made people play slower. It both encouraged leaving mana open, and made you think more about your opponent's open mana, which is a refreshing change from tapping out for your broken threat at sorcery speed every turn. I would like to see it come back more.
Ryan Nicholas: Psychic Frog needs to go; Bowmasters is manageable.
Curran Delahanty: I think they are both cards that can be potentially devastating but also they can be completely ignored or answered. These cards are not problematic in my eyes. I've always appreciated how Bowmasters can be there to punish Brainstorms and other popular draw outlets. The card is just dead in some matchups like Painter, Eldrazi, Lands, Nadu Cradle, Wight Cradle etc etc. Psychic Frog is obnoxious when unchecked but there's plenty of relevant interaction to play against it. I think both cards are fine.
Michael Mapson: I think Psychic Frog is very fun to play with. I think it can be skill testing from both sides. I also think it's too good though. It's interesting to me that some very smart players have been trimming in it. Maybe they know something I don't. Maybe I'll learn it later. But currently, I think Psychic Frog the best creature in the format.
Orcish Bowmasters is a funny card to me. When it was spoiled, I thought it was overrated. After playing with the card, I still think it's overrated. Don't get me wrong, it is a good card, but I think it's fine that it exists.
#5 - Write a Legacy Haiku. Be Creative!
Harmony Woods:
bowboy is okay
psychic frog is mostly cool
ban eye of ugin
Andreas Petersen:
The Love of the Game
The reason we are all here
Please remember it
Evan Lewis:
A most fancy suit
I really need Formalwear
Added to MODO
Ryan Nicholas:
Kozilek’s command
Psychic frog is an issue
Don’t ban my Drazis
Curran Delahanty:
End of Turn Brainstorm.
Tap Tomb Activate Saga.
Stage Copy Dark Depths.
Michael Mapson:
In Dark Depths she slept
Until a hexmage so brave
Sacrificed her own life
Wrapping Up
Big thanks to everyone who contributed to this Round Table! I will be shooting to do one more of these before the end of 2024, and that one will be my big end of year one that seeks to get as many people on board as POSSIBLE. Until then, enjoy!
Duskmourn Early Access Event
As a Magic Online Creator, I was invited to be a part of the Duskmourn Early Access event on Magic Online last week! This event was so much fun. I was joined by fellow Magic Online Creator StrassDaddy last Thursday where we played several games of Legacy to showcase off new cards! Check out both of our videos from this event below!
I posted all of the decklists I played to my Twitter account, which you can find here.
Big Changes to Magic Online Challenge Prizing for Format Challenges
This past week a very large change to some of how Magic Online is handling prizing for Format Challenges. Format Challenges are the weekly events that we cover here. The full link to the recent blog describing these changes as of the writing of this article can be found here.
Much of the reasoning behind these changes is centered around feedback provided by the community on the expansion of Constructed Format Challenges (as Daybreak has added more Challenges to the schedule throughout the week and weekend to meet certain demand) and that specifically too many Treasure Chests and Play Points were entering the system. Part of this change involves reducing the cost to enter a Constructed Format Challenge to 25 Event Tickets or 250 Play Points (which is down 5 tickets from before).
I won't go too much deeper into these changes, but they have been pretty hotly contested from the community at large. Something like this does take some time to understand how much it impacts things in an economical sense, but there have been some Challenges this past week that have failed to fire, but it's currently unknown if the issue with these Challenges is 100% directly tied to these changes. We'll be monitoring how things go with this to get a feel with where things are going, as Daybreak has shown time and time again that they are willing to work with the community to make changes with feedback.
Legacy Challenge 32 9/20
The first Challenge of the week was the Friday night/Saturday morning event. According to the MTGO website, this event had 51 players in it. There was no data for this event.
You can find the Top 32 decklists for this event here. The Top 8 is below.
| Deck Name | Placing | MTGO Username |
|---|---|---|
| Red Painter | 1st | SuperCow12653 |
| Red Stompy | 2nd | SiL3nTGoaT |
| Eldrazi | 3rd | walshi4life |
| Doomsday | 4th | wonderPreaux |
| Eldrazi | 5th | duke12 |
| Eldrazi | 6th | gazmon48 |
| Eldrazi | 7th | Sorathrix |
| Cradle Control | 8th | KazukiOoyama |
Quite a bit of Eldrazi in this Top 8. 4/8 of the Top 8 is just Eldrazi decks. However, at the end of the event it was Painter that won.
One major thing to note about this build is no Goblin Welder at all, which is weird for sure. I'm not a huge fan of the mana on this, because I think Great Furnace is too much of a liability in general right now. I think what really sells this list is the main deck Vexing Baubles and The One Ring.
In Second Place we had Red Stompy.
Pyrogoyf continues to absolutely impress me with how good it is. It's a very powerful threat that scales well in multiples (playing out second Goyf triggers both, etc.) and can also be very big and lethal very fast.
At the bottom of the Top 8 we had Cradle Control.
Barrowgoyf seems like a really solid inclusion here. The card in general has consistently looked great in a number of shells. Being able to possibly Springheart Nantuko one seems kind of nuts.
Legacy Challenge 32 9/21
The second Challenge of the week was the Saturday morning event. According to the MTGO website, this event had 53 players in it. There was no data for this event.
You can find the Top 32 decklists for this event here. The Top 8 is below.
| Deck Name | Placing | MTGO Username |
|---|---|---|
| Doomsday | 1st | Fuz65 |
| Red Painter | 2nd | onelastkiss |
| Mono Black Reanimator | 3rd | Roodslay |
| Gruul Stompy | 4th | Oscar_Franco |
| Red Stompy | 5th | Ant_Are_MTG |
| UB Reanimator | 6th | JPA93 |
| Red Painter | 7th | wiky |
| UB Reanimator | 8th | mei0024 |
Fairly interesting Top 8. Reasonable amount of Reanimator decks, but Doomsday won it all in the end.
The more Tempo-esque builds of Doomsday have definitely continued to creep up and up, and it's not surprising given the relative power of Psychic Frog. Jace, Wielder of Mysteries here is spicy.
In Second Place we had Red Painter.
This list is more my speed with Welders and I absolutely love Chaos Defiler as a card. It's so powerful and fun. Also having the Soul Cauldron angle of attack is great.
Further down the Top 8 we had Gruul Stompy.
Much more Initiative heavy build, it's surprising to see how weird Initiative has been lately given that over a year ago it was very much a real contender. Crazy how things change in the format nowadays. This list looks like nice though, I do love seeing some Minsc & Boo, Timeless Heroes.
Legacy Challenge 32 9/22
The final regular Challenge of the week was the 32 player Sunday event event. According to the MTGO website, this event had 34 players in it. There was no data for this event.
You can find the Top 32 decklists for this event here. The Top 8 is below.
| Deck Name | Placing | MTGO Username |
|---|---|---|
| Dimir Tempo | 1st | silviawataru |
| Red Painter | 2nd | kanican |
| UB Reanimator | 3rd | fivebrane |
| Red Stompy | 4th | choutin |
| Red Stompy | 5th | ice_nine_BIGFAN |
| UB Reanimator | 6th | taiyaki05410 |
| Eldrazi | 7th | Nanovo |
| Doomsday | 8th | wonderPreaux |
Lot of Ancient Tomb vs Brainstorm in this Top 8. At the end of the event it was Dimir Tempo that won.
Pretty straightforward list here. I am digging cards like Nihil Spellbomb main and also Bloodchief's Thirst. The sideboard is super cool too. Threads of Disloyalty? Yeah, this is neat.
In Second Place we had Red Painter.
Painter has been in three straight Top 8s for this weekend, so yeah, Painter is a very good deck to consider right now. This particular list is leaning on the more Mono Red with The One Ring and no Welders. Very interesting the dichotomy of the lists doing well.
Further down the Top 8 we had Eldrazi.
It feels pretty safe to say that I think the Eldrazi players have found a stock list, as this is about the only version I've been seeing out of this deck for a while now, and I'm not surprised because it seems quite strong.
Legacy Showcase Challenge 9/22
The big event of the weekend was the Legacy Showcase Challenge event. This is a QP only entry event, and according to the MTGO website this event had 264 players in it. There was unfortunately no data for this event, and if there ever was an event to want data on this would have been a good one.
You can find the Top 32 decklists for this event here. The Top 8 is below.
| Deck Name | Placing | MTGO Username |
|---|---|---|
| Jeskai Vial | 1st | hundinggjornersen |
| Dimir Tempo | 2nd | _Batutinha_ |
| UB Reanimator | 3rd | JPA93 |
| Dimir Tempo | 4th | pepeteam |
| Red Painter | 5th | Pvnisher |
| Doomsday | 6th | Enrichetta |
| Eldrazi | 7th | AManaTease |
| Stiflenought | 8th | LAURI_PROTOUR |
This is a super interesting Top 8 here. Good amount of Psychic Frog for sure, but the event was won overall by Jeskai VIAL?!
Okay, Phelia, Exuberant Shepherd and Gilded Drake seems absolutely nutters if you can keep taking opponent's creatures with it. Even better if your opponent has no creatures in play so you get their thing and your Drake back WHILE pumping Phelia. Also, sacrificing your opponent's creatures to Broadside Bombardiers seems absolutely nutters. This deck is sick.
In Second Place we had Dimir Tempo.
Given how much of the format is so graveyard-centric still, I am really not surprised by Nihil Spellbomb main. It's good Delirium for Nethergoyf while also reining in certain decks and draws cards. Seems like a win win.
At the bottom of the Top 8 we had Stiflenought.
Doorkeeper Thrull has continually felt like a solid card for these Stiflenought decks. Enabling the ability to cast multiple Dreadnoughts while also being a flying threat that flashes in is nice.
Around the Web
- Bryant Cook has a sweet video on The EPIC Storm. Be sure to check it out here.
- IN RESPONSE has a new episode. Check it out here.
- The Eternal Glory Podcast also has a new episode out. Check it out here.
The Spice Corner
Now that Leagues are posted throughout the week, let's find some Spice!
Emperor of Bones in Painter is kind of sweet.
Wrapping Up
That's all the time we have this week folks! Thanks for continuing to support the column and join us next week as we continue our journey into Legacy!
As always you can reach me at all my associated links via my Link Tree! In addition I'm always around the MTGGoldfish Discord Server and the MTGLegacy Discord Server.
Until next time!
